problem with dorian scale?

Question

i have a problem with minor dorian scale. you see, the natrual minor scale for the key A is abcdefg and dorian minor scale for the key of A is abcd f sharp g . but E natural minor scale have the same notes too. so, are they the same?

Answer 1

The parent scale of A Dorian is G Ionian (G major).

The parent scale of E Aeolian is G Ionian (G major).

Even though those three scales are enharmonic to each other ("contain the same notes"), they have different gravities.

A piece in the key of G major will have as its final tonic a G major chord, ie. its progressions "gravitate" to end on a G chord.

A piece in the key of E Aeolian (E natural minor) will have as its final tonic an E minor chord.

A piece in the key of A Dorian will have as its final tonic an A minor chord.

Answer 2

Look at a Dorian scale from the aspect of a Major scale. in the key of A Major aM bm c#M D#M EM F#M G#dim AM starting on B using the Major key Signature gives you B Dorian.

A Dorian would have the same key signature as G Major but starting from A.

Answer 3

Good question! So firstly, dorian is a MODE not a scale. Modes have specific pitch relations, different rules, and often have specific interval usage. They were used in the medieval era prior to the rise of keyboard instruments.

There are two parts to your question.

One: a mode in A with the same pitches as a minor scale in E. Are they the same? Nope! One has a home note of A, one has a home note of E. Also, Emin often uses accidentals to create more harmonic or melodic lines, whereas modes do not.

Two: why do the dorian and the aeolian (natural minor) modes have the same pitches? A common way to teach modes is based off of white keys on the piano. You can have any set of notes starting ANYWHERE, going up and octave and back down. Some of these patterns we used today (Ionian/Major and Aeolian/minor) being the main ones, but occasionally things like Dorian (D to D) or Lydian (F to F) are used today as well.

So the long and short of it is: modes are not scales, and if you have a different home note, you have a different scale!

Answer 4

Great question, and great observation!

You are correct that the two scales contain the same pitches, but where they differ is in their harmony, and tonal center. Where the E minor scale focuses around E, the A dorian scale focuses around the pitch A. This means that in a piece of music built from the E minor scale we are going to feel a sense of resolution typically when the piece returns to that E. The piece will most likely begin with an E minor harmony, and then throughout the phrase, or section, it will move somewhat away from that E but ultimately return home to E for resolution. Same thing for the A dorian scale.

So, you're next question may be, "sure, but if the pitches are the same, then how is that sense of resolution created?"

Remember how we create harmonies is by stacking thirds, so for E natural minor we might expect EGB built on E, and ACE built on the 4th scale degree; BDF# built on the 5th scale degree, though in a minor key we would almost always raise the leading tone to get a major triad built on the 5th scale degree.

...but look how that all changes with the A dorian: We still have a minor triad built on the first scale degree: ACE, but then we have a major chord built on scale degree 4, DF#A as opposed to the minor triad built on scale degree 4 of the E natural minor scale, and finally an E minor chord built on scale degree 5, EGB.

If we compare all the harmonies we can really start to see the differences:

For A Dorian

ACE (minor i)

BDF# (minor ii)

CEG (major III)

DF#A (major IV)

EGB (minor v)

F#AC (diminished viº)

GBD (major VII)

For E minor

EGB (minor i)

F#AC (diminished iiº)

GBD (major III, or III+ with raised leading tone GBD#)

ACE (minor iv)

BD#F# (major V, raising the leading tone)

CEG (major VI)

D#F#A (diminished viiº)

Dorian, in a nutshell, is going to get its Dorian-ness from that minor dominant. Each mode has its own fingerprint that can be uncovered when you start to take a look at the harmonies it creates.